Nimi Ravindran talks about the process of making To Forget is to Remember is to Forget, a unique delving into "...memory, mirror, mind and mother..." that engages the audience with installations, print, performance, video and photography.
Q Okay so let's dive straight in. You hold multitudes within you. A journalist with years of experience, a storyteller yourself, a teacher of recent persuasion, a theatre director, a curator. What was the search for this form like? Why is this piece made this way?
A When I was much younger, I used to think that we could only be one thing, it's taken me a long time to realise that we can all be many things, we should at least try. So, when I started work on this piece, I was only sure of one thing - that I was not going to make a 'play' or what I understood as a regular or traditional idea of a play with characters etc. My one definite idea was a film, with something very real and banal taking place, but in a bizarre, abstract, otherworldly landscape. and background. I was trying to understand what goes on in our brain when we remember or forget. So, I started with film, followed by some installations and other stuff... And, finally chose the simplest way to tell a story. I tried to make the final performance, as 'untheatrical' as possible. No sets, no shaft of light, no shadows, no interpretive dance (not that I'm capable!) Basically, I wanted to be able to tell a story without any embellishments.
Q You've had a long gestation period and a few false starts. Would you take us through this journey and what it meant for you? How did you last?
A I started this work in 2013, but I didn't really start till 2023, that's 10 years. I started work with a few friends in 2019-20, it was a disaster thanks to the pandemic, earlier I had started with the idea of a book as part of a performance, but I gave that up soon enough, I even got carried away and thought of a zoom performance at some point. Thankfully better sense prevailed and I dropped that idea very quickly. Actually, I gave up on this project many times, but I'm thankful that I kept coming back to it. In 2013 I was planning to make a play about people who lose their memory - a country filled with people who remember nothing - gave that up as well. So, each time I started well but all my ideas would fizzle out within weeks if not months.
In January 2023, I realised it had been 10 years since I had started, so I decided, it was now or never, one last try and if it didn't work, I would let this go and start work on something that I had in mind. I went to Kamshet and started writing. I was happy with what I managed, even though it was nothing like what I set out to write. Then I went back to Bangalore and started real work, the shoots, the rehearsals, all of that. Things fell into place very quickly. I opened exactly a year later.
Q I'm interested in the collaborations around this project. You have always worked in teams, in various ways and towards various outcomes. With something as personal as this, was it different? Communicating your thoughts and articulating why something could be a certain way, allowing others in with ideas that would be artistically sound but didn't quite fit. How did you navigate these?
A It was very easy because I had Sujay as my dramaturg, he's been a big part of my artistic and personal journey for nearly 20 years so it felt easy to explore some idea of a personal narrative. As for the film makers and the sound designers, it was difficult simply because these were not mediums I was used to. I understood nothing of filmmaking but Ben is a friend and an amazing film maker, so together we were able to create something. Same with music and sound, there's a lot of that, I know very little about tech and sound, but with Baan and Sachin on board, things happened quite peacefully, it helped that all of them were people I trust with my life.
Whenever there was a glitch, it was because I didn't know how to articulate certain things, but I learned how to do better, they helped me, and together it happened. I needed to make this complicated box, and I didn't know how, thankfully Rency stepped in; I needed images morphed and a book designed, and it was amazing to have Aakriti step in and Charu was there from the beginning working and thinking this through with me. So between all of us, we managed something. In other words - something and all! These are all things way outside my comfort zone and all of it was possible only because of the collaborators.
Q You opened in July 2024. How did it feel on opening night? What kind of response were you looking for from the audience? Do you have a barometer for whether this piece is successful or not?
A On opening night, an hour before the show I had the worst headache of my life, it was excruciating, but I didn't want to take a Saridon or Dolo, because I thought it could make me dull or slow and I hadn't been on stage for nearly 2 decades and I didn't want that. As for the response, I wanted the audience to connect to what I was saying, that's the maximum I could have expected, I didn't know what to expect. But it was beyond overwhelming because the audience response was amazing, more than anything I expected. I've done 8 shows so far, and it always surprises me. I expect that people of a certain age and their parents will connect a little, but I'm surprised by very young people saying they connect with the performance. So many people write letters and long messages after the show, I will compile all of this at some point, someday, I'll do something... Like I said it's all a bit overwhelming. In the nicest way.
Success is very difficult to measure. I'm happy, the entire team is happy, and the audience seems happy. It's a small show (50ish people per show) so we don't have to kill ourselves trying to sell tickets, I'm not sure it's financially successful because I need to repay a loan I've taken to make the show. But I'm happy with the show, so I think that's a win.
Q You call this an exhibition-performance. What do you think is the draw of a piece like this, that falls between stools, that doesn't fit into a conventional framework? Pieces like these have been on the rise over the last decade, in India. What do you attribute this to?
A This comes back to what we saw as theatre. We've seen and figured out 10-20 ways of making theatre, there must be a thousand more that we don't know, that we will figure if we look and explore. In recent years the lines between dance, music, theatre, installations... All of this has been blurring. Why label anything or limit it to any one thing. So, if I want film and performance in one space I can have it, same with other installations. I had too many elements in my show, there are three films and four installations and a performance. Most of these elements can also be shown as a solo thing, and I will do that in the future, but for the first 10-15 shows, I'd like to do it all together where possible.
Q Also in terms of content, the personal narrative is being explored and shared today like never before, often excising the larger context and without insight. I'm not saying your piece does this (I haven't witnessed it), but I'm interested in whether you see a culture of self-expression that perpetuates self-indulgence. And is this really a problem in and of itself? Or is it part of a community-wide evolution...?
A Here is a medium that doesn't make me money, the opposite in fact, like I said, I've had to borrow money to make this work - that's how badly I wanted to make it. Now the least I can do is indulge myself. If I can't even do that, why am I struggling with this and for so long.
Also, whom should I be indulging if not myself? And, what exactly is the larger context? What is the core of my piece - memory, is that interesting only for me? If it was, I would have written an essay and read and reread it at home. I believed it could be interesting to some others, and so I made this work. I could have been wrong, but we only know that when the work is out there, by then it's too late. So, I don't know if this is a problem, we'll have to look at each work and figure whether they stand these tests. Finally, I believe that everything is personal, everything comes from somewhere, some real experience, it might not be your own. It doesn't matter where the material comes from, the meaning making happens in the minds of the audience, so it works, or it doesn't, which is the case for any piece of work that is put out into the world. I also believe that fiction is more truthful than non-fiction.
Of all the work I've done, this is the first time I've worked with something a little personal, but I'm just as happy to think of this as not personal. In fact, so much time has passed that I've put some distance between myself and the material. That headache I had during the opening shows, that was possibly the one sign of something being very personal and it happened only during the opening shows, I don't get them anymore, so more distance. I've seen a lot of personal material on stage, some I've liked, most I haven't. So irrespective of where it comes from, wherever the germ originated from, it has to work on its own merit, not because of where it came from. Which is why sometimes Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice might feel more truthful than a play about someone talking about the death of a parent. Not to take anything away from the material and how valid it is. As for me, I don't have any objectivity when it comes to this work, I'm too close to it. I'm happy with it, but I'll be more than happy to get some feedback, even strong critique, or criticisms, I'd love it in fact.
Q You have been instrumental in the making of at least 3 lasting Arts institutions in India - Ranga Shankara, The TCT Workspace in Kamshet and Sandbox Collective. There may be more I don't know of, there will certainly be more to come. What drives you in these scenarios?
A I wouldn't say I was instrumental in making Ranga Shankara, I was part of the core group and as a young person it was a great experience to be part of something monumental. With TCT workspace, yes, more so because it started with a group of us and we worked on making it happen start to finish, so the sense of ownership is much stronger because I conceived and conceptualised the fundraiser and ran the entire project till we had raised enough money to buy the land, with others of course, that's Atul, Sujay, Sachin & Rachel. It's something I'm very proud of, I thought we had managed something phenomenal and then there was the all-nighter arts festival, all of that is a big part of my work.
I wouldn't call Sandbox Collective an institution, it's an arts organisation that Shiva (Pathak) and I started because we felt that we lacked support systems and alternatives as artists and theatre groups and we wanted to figure better ways to work, it has evolved into something much bigger than what we envisaged. Today, after 11 years at Sandbox Collective, we're still just 8 people. But we manage to get a lot done, simply because it's something we're committed to, whether it's Gender Bender (annual festival) or the Feminist Library, we're all excited about the same things and we're together and all our dreams are collective dreams and collective responsibilities. Shiva and I have stepped away from Gender Bender and we now have Prerana YSK as festival director, it will now have new vision and new direction outside of its founders that's great to see and feels very liberating.
Not sure if I've rambled or answered properly.
Q Which do you prefer? Making a piece like this or creating something like a Sandbox Collective or Gender Bender? And if asking for preference is unfair, then describe the difference in the satisfaction? Because one is relatively short term, and the other is so open ended...
A All of it is intensely satisfying. I love doing things behind the scenes. It's one of the reasons Shiva and I work so well together. Neither of us is dying to be applauded, we're very happy knowing things are happening without wanting to be part of the curtain call. But, it's a LOT of admin work, so much so that a burnout is inevitable if we don't nourish ourselves with creative work and surround ourselves with joy and fun and some creative outlets... So maybe perform, or be part of someone's creative process, write, act, make something, and every now and then when you find something compelling that speaks to you - just make the work. It's not always possible, but we must push ourselves to do it.
Vinod (Ravindran) and I co-directed a performance in Goa in 2019, commissioned by a festival I won't name. It was titled 'On a Different Note'. We worked with a local choir from Goa and music composers from Goa. It is, till date, the most emotionally and creatively satisfying project I've ever worked on. We did about 9 shows and worked on this for a couple of months only. It was one of the best experiences of my life. So, some short-term things are intensely satisfying and the experience will continue to nourish you long after the project is over. So different things, all of them very important. I enjoy all of them, sometimes one more than the other, but it keeps changing.
Q Okay back to the piece. Did you know of the Elvis song before you titled it? Or did you learn of it after?
A I had no idea till I saw this question. Then I asked Ajay (Krishnan) and Deepika (Arwind), they hadn't heard it either. So we listened to it together. I couldn't understand half of the things he was saying :), so I had to google the lyrics. Fun. But to answer your question, no. I had no clue. I wanted the title to run in a loop, to go on and on and on, because it was about forgetting and remembering and forgetting and... Like that. I would have still used the title, even if I had heard or known of the song.
Q And finally, what's next? I read somewhere that there is a solo performance version of this in the works. Is it? And is there anything else?
A Like I said, all of the various elements of this show can be shown / performed solo, including the performance. So I will be performing this without all the installations as well.
What's next is, I'm going to continue exploring memory, personal, collective and public, I'm quite hooked onto this. I have two things in mind - a book and a series of podcasts.
I don't know how to work on either, and it's not going to be immediate... But I've started thinking about it, so it will happen at some point. I also want to direct Pinter's Mountain Language. I've done this a few times in the past as workshop productions… But I want to do a proper version of this soon. When? I have no clue. Hopefully in the next couple of years, I am not a very quick worker like that, these things take time to simmer and cook. Slowly, slowly catch ye monkey.
Photos courtesy: Surabhi Vasisht
UPCOMING SHOWS
Feb 8 and 9
Goethe Institut / Max Mueller Bhavan Bangalore
12-5pm: Exhibition (free and open to all)
6pm: The performance (ticketed)
About the piece: To Forget is to Remember is to Forget is an exhibition-performance that attempts to trace layered relationships between memory, mirror, mind and mother. Traversing through visual and sound installations, video, photography, print and performance, the show tries to reimagine the idea of the inheritance of loss.
Credits:
Concept, Text & Performance: Nimi Ravindran
Design & Dramaturgy: Sujay Saple
Cinematography & Editing: Ben Brix
Additional Editing: Samrat Damayanti
Sound Design: Baan G & SachinGurjale
Image & Book Design: Aakriti Chandervanshi
Photo BoxDesign: Rency Philip
Production Management: Charulatha Dasappa
Production Assistance: Surabhi Vasisht
Original Poster Design: Arjun Shankar (Fizz)
BenBrix’s participation was supported by Goethe-Institut / Max Mueller Bhavan Bangalore
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